To be honest, I wasn't planning any blog entries in the foreseeable future. It wasn't because I lacked opinions on things. I just had too many other irons in the fire to spend much time opinionizing. Then, just the other day, I noticed an article about medical marijuana on my local paper's online site. I'm not a marijuana smoker but neither do I think such people walk around with horns on their heads. In any case, I decided to leave an opinion in their comment area from my own moderate viewpoint - thinking it would be a one-time post. Instead, I started what ended up becoming a round-robin debate with another person that spanned 3 days (phew).

My forum username is "alecwest." And my debate adversary calls himself "Nosing Around." What follows is the complete content of that debate from the first post to the last. Some things I say and some things he says might offend certain people. This should come as no surprise since the issue of medical marijuana can generate strong feelings and opinions. But ready or not, here it comes.

alecwest April 22, 2012 at 7:12PM

I used to smoke marijuana daily ... and a lot of it ... many years ago. Now, I no longer smoke it and don't plan to do so in the future. But, I didn't quit because I woke up one morning and said, "Oh, God, what am I doing to myself?" I quit because I simply found better things to do with my money and my time. FWIW, when my son got to "that age" when you're supposed to talk to kids about drugs, I did. But I was completely honest with him about my pot use and why I quit. He did try pot. But now he doesn't smoke it anymore for the same reason I quit. He spends his time and money pursuing a drug that, to him, is far more expensive than pot ... namely, "women" (snicker).

He's currently working and attending college simultaneously and I'm very proud of him. And despite my pot smoking years, I am now a relatively normal and relatively articulate 61-year-old whose mind is as sharp as a tack.

Bottom line? I honestly believe that marijuana does have medicinal properties. I know medical marijuana users personally who have benefited from those medicinal properties. But, there needs to be an established system to regulate quality of the product and prevent profiteering. So far, I've not seen such a system ... even in California.

So, I remain "on the fence" on this issue. And while wholesale legalization is not something I'm totally against, I'd want to see that established system in place first ... not to mention a means to tax the product and earmark that revenue to deal with the potential problems its sale might cause.

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Nosing Around April 22, 2012 at 7:20PM

If marijuana is legalized like alcohol, meaning that people could legally grow their own just as they can legally brew their own beer or ferment their own wine, it would quickly become virtually impossible to tax marijuana to any significant degree. The reason is that only marijuana's illegality makes it anything other than dirt cheap.

The cost to grow and process an ounce of marijuana is no more than $20, and a whole lot less if you do it in your backyard. Currently, an ounce sells for upwards of $250. That's almost entirely a function of its illegal status. Make it truly legal, and marijuana prices would fall straight through the floorboards.

If you want it legal, fine. But do not expect that true legalization would yield meaningful tax revenue. The "medical marijuana" fiction keeps most growing and all sales illegal, which props up prices and serves the cartels. Most "legalization" schemes keep self-cultivation illegal, which is simply an attempt by state governments to get in on the action.

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alecwest April 22, 2012 at 7:45PM

Nosing Around -- I would not expect ANY meaningful revenue from people who grew their own. But, be honest - how many people would? People could grow their own fruits and vegetables and hunt their own meat ... but they don't. We live in a grocery store culture where people like to "buy" those kind of things rather than attempt producing the products themselves - because doing so involves (shudder) work.

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Nosing Around April 22, 2012 at 9:47PM

I would not expect ANY meaningful revenue from people who grew their own. But, be honest - how many people would? People could grow their own fruits and vegetables and hunt their own meat ... but they don't. We live in a grocery store culture where people like to "buy" those kind of things rather than attempt producing the products themselves - because doing so involves (shudder) work.

If there are no legal barriers to entry, such as with tomatoes or beef, prices will tend to fall towards the cost of production plus a premium for the risk of the business. The cost of growing and processing an ounce of marijuana, if legal, is roughly $13 in the United States, and would likely decline as an efficient industry got organized.

Now, the retail price of the same marijuana, today, is $250 an ounce and up, depending mostly on the quantity purchased. If cultivation were truly legal -- not just commercially, but personally -- how long do you think it would take to close the gap between the $13 production cost (and declining), and the $250-plus price at retail?

If the state organized a cartel, by banning personal cultivation, then it's not legalization. It's just the substitution of one cartel for another. Most stoners, not being mentally sharp, seem to want to allow that. But still, it's not legalization, and I'm talking about legalization on the same basis as alcohol, which allows individuals to brew their own. Do you still follow, or have I lost you in your haze?

If not, then let us continue. If your favorite drug were to be truly legal, and people could grow their own, or could simply enter the business on their own, the canyon between $250+ and $13 per ounce would be closed. If the state tried to keep it open with taxes, at some point the army of amateur gardeners would force it closed.

How would this happen? Well, even a mentally challenged stoner (now think really hard and imagine who I am talking about) would look up from his bong one day and say, "Hey, man, why am I paying $250 an ounce for "legal" marijuana when I can grow my own for almost nothing?

Bottom line: If really legal, there is no way that the state could support a price even remotely close to what's being charged today. And once that happens -- within a couple years of true legalization -- tax revenues would collapse. Have you followed any of this, or are you too drug addled to think?

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alecwest April 23, 2012 at 12:23AM

Nosing Around -- Before responding to your long missive, I have a question for you. Have you personally ever smoked marijuana?

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Nosing Around April 23, 2012 at 3:40AM

@alecwest, have you ever killed a man?

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alecwest April 23, 2012 at 4:53PM

Nosing Around -- Have I ever killed a man? Probably. I'm a Vietnam vet who was in the combat zone for 1 tour. But I never actually saw any of the bodies.

Now, back to my question to you. Have you ever smoked marijuana? Additionally, if you have, how often did you smoke it and for how long?

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Nosing Around April 23, 2012 at 5:39PM

Why does it matter?

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Nosing Around April 23, 2012 at 6:14PM

Whether or not I did, or do, smoke dope, and how much or why, has nothing to do with the arguments I've been making here. I haven't even said whether or not I think marijuana should be legalized. What I've been doing is pointing out the practical realities and implications of various policy alternatives.

The problem with the stoner lobby is that you're deathly afraid of a truly candid and logical discussion of the various realities. Everything the stoners put out is slanted and manipulative. It's funny and a little bit sad, quite frankly. And then, in the end, you want to know if I smoke dope. As if that actually matters.

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alecwest April 23, 2012 at 10:32PM

I asked because I was curious whether I was debating with someone who shared common experiences to mine. But ultimately, you're correct ... it doesn't matter. Now, to respond to your earlier long missive.

You wrote:

"If there are no legal barriers to entry, such as with tomatoes or beef, prices will tend to fall towards the cost of production plus a premium for the risk of the business. The cost of growing and processing an ounce of marijuana, if legal, is roughly $13 in the United States, and would likely decline as an efficient industry got organized."

Here's two figures - $51.99 and $1.15. The first figure is the cost of a carton of Marlboro kings at my local mom/pop store. $1.15 is the cost of cultivating enough tobacco to fill a carton of king-size Marlboros. Even at the pre-tax cost of $10.12 a carton, there's quite a disparity between that figure and $1.15 (assuming one "grew their own"). The mom/pop store says their markup on cigarettes is small - that their profit comes from the volume of sales more than the markup. So, the lion's share of the cost of that carton is Federal and state tax.

Now ... the article said that an ounce of pot (average Portland street price $250 per WeBeHigh.com) lasts the average user up to 4 weeks. With cigarettes, assuming the smoker is a modest smoker, a carton of cigarettes lasts about a week. So, 4 cartons for 4 weeks costs $207.96 ... and the cost of cultivating 4 cartons-worth of tobacco on your own is only $4.60. With such a disparity between the cost of buying processed tobacco in a store and growing it yourself, why don't most people grow their own ... especially when it's legal? The answer is obvious - the grocery store culture. People would rather spend $207.96 a month on cigarettes than growing their own for only $4.60 because cultivation equals work. So, if pot became legal (and subject to taxation), why would people spend $250 for store-bought marijuana when it only costs $13 to grow your own? Same answer - the grocery store culture (convenience uber alles).

You wrote:

"If your favorite drug were to be truly legal, and people could grow their own, or could simply enter the business on their own, the canyon between $250+ and $13 per ounce would be closed. If the state tried to keep it open with taxes, at some point the army of amateur gardeners would force it closed."

You wrote:

"If really legal, there is no way that the state could support a price even remotely close to what's being charged today. And once that happens -- within a couple years of true legalization -- tax revenues would collapse."

In any case, my opinions remain unaltered. It's been MANY years since I smoked marijuana and I have no intention of going back to it. Money-wise and time-wise, smoking marijuana makes no sense to me. And on the issues of conditional legalization (medical marijuana) and full legalization, I'll remain on the fence until someone shows me a workable plan to ensure quality, prevent profiteering, and tax marijuana appropriately.

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 1:06PM

I'm glad you mentioned cigarettes, because you've given me the opportunity to show just how wrong you are.

No one can grow his own cigarette. In fact, a cigarette is a very highly engineered product. Tobacco is only the beginning. Unlike marijuana, tobacco is tricky to grow. It's a multi-stage process that requires a particular outdoor climate. The average stoner wouldn't have a chance. The processing ("curing," or drying, and then fermentation) of tobacco is very time consuming, taking a minimum of two years. A stoner would never have the patience or the focus.

At that point, all you have is raw tobacco leaf, which then must be turned into a cigarette. Cigarette makers use more than one variety of leaves, and the loose tobacco is then mixed with various additives that impart flavor and keep the cigs moist enough to last but dry enough to light, and not rot. All of those additives are proprietary, which means that no amateur could hope to duplicate, say, a Marlboro.

Finally, there are the filters, which are manufactured, and the rolling into a precise shape. The rolling is the easiest part, but everything else is actually quite difficult, and in fact impossible in the real world, for an individual to accomplish. Bottom line: While an individual cigarette might be quite cheap to make, that's only because it's the sophisticated product of a highly mechanized and efficient industrial chain.

Marijuana, by contrast, is a weed that can be cultivated just about anywhere by any interested gardener. If the outdoor climate is insufficient, it can be grown indoors very easily. There are some minor twists and turns, but not many. If it were fully legal, most issues (such as the sexing of plants, and distinctions among varieties) would be readily addressed by nurseries. Once grown, it takes no more than a couple of months to cure, and in fact can be quick-dried in an oven.

At that point, you have the end product. There's no blending, no additives, no further processing. You stick it in a pipe or a vaporizer, or roll a joint, or bake it into food, and there you are. So there's really no comparison.

In a legalized environment, would some people choose to buy it? Of course they would. I have never once argued otherwise here. The issue is how much they would pay. Sure, given the a laziness and stupidity of many stoners, I suppose there'd still be the occasional stoner idiot who'd pay $150 an ounce. But not very many. Not when the growing cost in California's central valley is $2.80 an ounce, and harvesting, curing, and distribution maybe another $10 an ounce.

At wholesale, $13 marijuana would become $25 at retail. It would compete with home grown at $5 an ounce, maximum. This would keep a very tight leash on the store bought product, and in fact would exert heavy downward pressure. One of the first things you'd see would be major cost-cutting efforts by commercial producers.

Enter the tax man. If, say, a state thought it could charge $10 or $20 or $50 an ounce in tax, they'd get a quick Economics 101 lesson. If marijuana were legal, meaning legal for me to grow in my back yard, even a $25 store-bought ounce would be in danger. You'd have individuals growing it and just giving it away to friends and neighbors. ("Hey, Dave, I've got more than I can use. Want a couple extra plants?")

At $35 or $45 or $75 an ounce, including the state's attempted markup, that informal sharing would become something else entirely. You'd have new cartels spring up. They'd be focused mainly on distribution, because, after all, growing one's own would now be fully legal, and we're talking about growing a weed that's very easy to cultivate.

In business school-speak, the barriers to entry would be non-existent; with a heavy state tax, the rivalry between competitors would be sky-high; the power of suppliers would be low; bargaining power of buyers would be high. This is a recipe for price collapse. For more, see Michael Porter's Competitive Strategy, the business classic.

Back to tobacco. The only reason the states can enforce high cigarette taxes is because the barrier to entry is gigantic. Individuals really cannot grow their own cigarettes. If they could, there's no way you'd see the prices now charged.

Let's take a different example, beer. I have brewed my own. It costs about 20 cents per beer to make your own, vs. a dollar to buy it. Why not just make your own, then? The reason is that, while you can do it, making your own beer is a hassle. The equipment is bulky, the sterilization is a pain, and the end product is about five gallons worth, which is more than most people want to keep sitting around. Yes, you can make less, but the practicalities argue against it.

And your beer making equipment stands alone. There is nothing else you can do with it. By contrast, with marijuana, it's just another plant to grow in the garden, or in the house. If it were legal, there'd be little or no special, separate effort involved. There are millions of gardeners who spend lots of time at it. I'm confident that, if legal, you'd have a bare minimum of several hundred thousand marijuana growers within a year.

All would be making their own at $5 an ounce, maximum. Over time, many would be making it at a cost that rounded down to zero. Yes, the occasional dumb stoner would pay $150 an ounce. After all, in the words of P.T. Barnum, there's a sucker born every minute. But they'd be the exception and not the rule. The states? The minute they tried to get cute with taxation, they'd learn their lesson.

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alecwest April 24, 2012 at 2:04PM

You wrote:

"In fact, a cigarette is a very highly engineered product."

Just a brief aside on storage from personal experience. Back when I used pot, I didn't leave a baggie around in a drawer. I wrapped the baggie in aluminum foil and tossed it in the freezer. Doing this can keep cannabis fresh and potent for a considerably long time - no additives required.

You wrote:

"Finally, there are the filters, which are manufactured, and the rolling into a precise shape."

You wrote:

"At that point, you have the end product. There's no blending, no additives, no further processing. You stick it in a pipe or a vaporizer, or roll a joint, or bake it into food, and there you are. So there's really no comparison."

Sorry, I'm just not buying your arguments.

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 2:16PM

It doesn't matter that the Indians smoked tobacco, nor does it matter whether they blended their tobacco or used additives. All of that is beside the point. You used the example of cigarettes, a highly engineered product that is impossible to replicate at home, as a comparison to marijuana. I showed you that the comparison is wrong, and now you want to quibble about what the Indians did or didn't smoke. We can say this much: They didn't smoke whatever the stores in Canada are selling.

You aren't buying my argument because, like the rest of the stoner lobby, you will not consider any facts or logic not pre-chewed and pre-digested by your allies. If, for some reason, the shape of the planet was relevant to the discussion, you wouldn't want anyone to say that the Earth is round unless it somehow supported your desire for "medical" marijuana, or for whatever the stoner lobby wants at the moment.

It's a sad, and amusing, to see your crowd put what's left of its brains in a blind trust to be administered by someone else. Oh well.

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 1:15PM

p.s.: What I find fascinating is the heavy reluctance by stoners to have this discussion. Part of it is the simple laziness and stupidity of your average doper. Look at the comments in this thread from the stoners. Most of them have a problem even writing a coherent sentence, let alone tracking a multi-step logic chain.

But there's an even bigger issue with the stoners. They will not allow themselves to evaluate any fact involving marijuana on its own merits. They insist on putting every bit of information through a propaganda filter, to make sure it helps their case. They reject any data and any argument that hasn't been pre-chewed and pre-digested by the stoner lobby.

It's frustrating, but it's also amusing. First you have the dope itself, which doesn't make the users any smarter. Then, as if that's not enough, you have these people expending additional effort to further stupefy themselves. Oh well!

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alecwest April 24, 2012 at 3:17PM

You wrote:

"You used the example of cigarettes, a highly engineered product that is impossible to replicate at home, as a comparison to marijuana."

You wrote:

"...you will not consider any facts or logic not pre-chewed and pre-digested by your allies."

BTW, I'm not saying that the pro-pot lobby isn't putting out a certain amount of B.S. to suit their agenda. I'm merely saying that the anti-pot lobby is doing the same thing ... relying on the government's say-so instead of a privately funded study whose researchers don't have a dog in the fight.

You wrote:

"What I find fascinating is the heavy reluctance by stoners to have this discussion."

"The average stoner can't think his way out of a plastic baggie..."

"Noah, keep smoking. I am figuring that in 25 years or so, I'm going to need someone to, uh, clean up after me. That'll be you."

"The average stoner is an underachieving, incoherent mess, unfit to do much of anything other than wipe up after others."

And yet, you've said that once pot became truly legal, this underachieving, incoherent mess would soon become a motivated army of amateur growers to close the gap in pricing ... when tobacco users, legally capable of doing the same thing, remain largely unmotivated to do so.

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 3:43PM

Alas, I thought I might have been having a discussion with an honest opponent. But no. Or maybe all the dope you smoked way back when simply fried too much of your brain. Either way, I've told you what I can tell you, and you've done everything you can to evade and misrepresent not just what I've written, but what you yourself wrote.

Sad and funny how the dope lobby is so deathly afraid of obvious realities.

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alecwest April 24, 2012 at 3:56PM

You wrote:

"Sad and funny how the dope lobby is so deathly afraid of obvious realities."

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 4:00PM

By the way, any comment thread is full of insults between stoners and non-stoners. If you were really upset about insults, rather than grasping at an excuse to be outraged, you'd have decried them in both directions.

And you've implicitly assumed policy positions that I don't have. I haven't decided where I stand on legalization or regulation. For the time being, I've been focused on the inability of virtually everyone to have a truthful discussion. Which, unfortunately, includes you.

Oh, and Ron Paul? You just gave yourself away. He wants to legalize dope. You've obviously made up your mind. Which is fine, but it'd be good if you could have an honest discussion about the various issues without engaging in the cheap tricks you have in this part of the thread.

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alecwest April 24, 2012 at 4:34PM

You wrote:

"By the way, any comment thread is full of insults between stoners and non-stoners."

You first wrote:

"And you've implicitly assumed policy positions that I don't have. I haven't decided where I stand on legalization or regulation."

And then wrote:

"Oh, and Ron Paul? You just gave yourself away. He wants to legalize dope. You've obviously made up your mind."

http://alecwest.com/dope.jpg

FWIW, I got that photo from the slideshow that appears at the beginning of this article - and slightly altered it.

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Nosing Around April 24, 2012 at 4:49PM

You weren't successful in this discussion. You drove it off the rails with a series of cheap tricks, making it impossible to have a truthful or logical debate. It's pretty sad, actually. I think the whole structure of the law regarding marijuana is deeply flawed, but if the stoner lobby is going to rely on a series of lies, then I frankly see little incentive to change anything, except maybe to repeal the phony "medical marijuana" system.

But I'm not dumb enough to think it will actually be repealed. The stoners have enough influence to keep it alive, and enough stupidity to want to keep paying a couple hundred bucks and up for something they could grow themselves for next to nothing. Maybe just as well. A poor stoner can't get in as much trouble, maybe?

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alecwest April 24, 2012 at 5:03PM

Have a nice day. ;)

... and then, our keyboards silenced - and the only sound left was the sound of crickets (grin).